I need to open and print a PCB created in ExpressPCB: What are my options?

[Jeremy Pedersen]

Hello everyone,

I am a second semester Electrical Engineering Technologies student at a
community college. To get some practice with circuit prototyping/manufacture
I would like to try my hand at printing a PCB layout for a laser tag system
on photo transfer paper and using it to etch a PCB. The first problem I ran
into during this process was that the MilesTag project (link here:
http://lasertagparts.com/mtdesign.htm) provided no PCB layouts, only
schematics. Having never used any EDA software before, I e-mailed these
folks and asked if I could have PCB layouts for printing.

The MilesTag project was kind enough to place PCB layouts on their website,
but they were produced using ExpressPCB and I cannot open them with gerbv or
PCB! I gather that RS-274D files are not supported by either of these
programs (PCB and gerbv), and nothing short of a very rough perl script
(that I turned up after searching the archives of this mailing list) seems
to exist for converting these .pcb files to the RS-274x format.

This leaves me with very limited options:

- I can install ExpressPCB on a windows machine if I can find one with a
suitable printer (such as an HP Deskjet)
- I can try to use this perl script (no idea how it works: I know zero perl)
- I can install ExpressPCB in wine, but I cannot make it talk to my printer,
even with cups enabled (I compiled wine from source)

I have a few questions concerning those options, and if they are not
*technically* gEDA related, please forgive me:

- Can ExpressPCB save in other formats like RS-274x? If so, I might be able
to ask (politely, of course) if the MilesTag folks could post new PCB files
that I could use.

- Does anyone here use ExpressPCB in wine as a supplement to gEDA for when
you encounter .pcb's that can't be opened in PCB? If so, how do you get
things printed from inside wine?

- Best of all, is anyone here aware of a newer/more complete script or
program capable of converting an RS-274D to an RS-274x file?

- And last but not least, could I write my own schematics (using the
schematics on the MilesTag site) and make my own PCB from this schematic?
(link to schematics: http://lasertagparts.com/mt5xx.htm). Looking at that
schematic, could anyone here tell me what chance I stand of making a PCB
layout that works? If so, how long would it take someone starting from
almost absolute zero to create these files? What are the chances the first
(auto-routed) two sided boards would work? I have looked into gEDA and it
looks very complicated at first glance, yet very powerful -- like most
things under Linux :-) -- what documentation should I peruse if I were to
attempt this feat? I should probably be learning gEDA anyway so that I can
avoid the software we must use at school: MultiSim.

This is my first foray into EDA and I understand that my ignorance probably
shows, so thank you very much for your patience,
Jeremy

[DJ Delorie]

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
I am a second semester Electrical Engineering Technologies student
at a community college. To get some practice with circuit
prototyping/manufacture I would like to try my hand at printing a
PCB layout for a laser tag system on photo transfer paper and using
it to etch a PCB.

You've come to the right place!

(also, look into toner transfer - IMHO less complicated than photo
transfer, once you figure out the nuances of the process)

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
The first problem I ran into during this process was that the
MilesTag project (link here: http://lasertagparts.com/mtdesign.htm)
provided no PCB layouts, only schematics.

Most places do that. If they provide a layout, it's normally just a
PDF, because cad programs all have their own format.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
The MilesTag project was kind enough to place PCB layouts on their
website, but they were produced using ExpressPCB and I cannot open
them with gerbv or PCB! I gather that RS-274D files are not
supported by either of these programs (PCB and gerbv),

More likely, they're expresspcb-specific binary files that have
nothing to do with RS-274 (gerber) format. Gerber is the *output* of
these programs, not the storage format.

What you want to do is download the technical reference PDF, which
includes both schematics and board plots. Use the schematics as
references to learn to use gschem, so you'll have real schematics
(which produce a netlist, for example). Use the board layouts as
background images to aid you in re-laying-out the boards in PCB (make
their layouts the background image, see
http://www.delorie.com/pcb/bg-image.html).

Once you learn gschem and pcb, you'll be able to do lots of boards at
lots of fabs, but learning expressPCB ties you in to their service.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
- Can ExpressPCB save in other formats like RS-274x? If so, I might
be able to ask (politely, of course) if the MilesTag folks could
post new PCB files that I could use.

Don't know. Won't help you much, since the ONLY thing you can do with
RS-274X files is make a board from them; you can't really edit them or
"design" with them, and you might as well learn to do the boards
yourself anyway.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
- And last but not least, could I write my own schematics (using the
schematics on the MilesTag site) and make my own PCB from this
schematic?

Yes! The tech ref PDF has everything you need to re-do it all in
gschem and PCB.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
If so, how long would it take someone starting from almost absolute
zero to create these files?

If I had nothing else to do all day, about a day.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
I have looked into gEDA and it looks very complicated at first
glance, yet very powerful -- like most things under Linux :-) --
what documentation should I peruse if I were to attempt this feat?

The FAQ has a few key bits about symbol and footprint creation (also
see www.gedasymbols.org), which is the trickiest bit of the whole
process (*I* think it's easy, but it generates the most questions).

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
This is my first foray into EDA and I understand that my ignorance
probably shows, so thank you very much for your patience,

Hey, at least you're willing to learn.

[Mark Rages]

Post by DJ Delorie

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
I have looked into gEDA and it looks very complicated at first
glance, yet very powerful -- like most things under Linux :-) --
what documentation should I peruse if I were to attempt this feat?

The FAQ has a few key bits about symbol and footprint creation (also
see www.gedasymbols.org), which is the trickiest bit of the whole
process (*I* think it's easy, but it generates the most questions).

My usual way of learning software (just start using it and look up
features as I run into the need) was a total loss with gEDA.

The more structured approach of Bill Wilson's tutorial got me started, though.

Regards,
Mark
***@gmail

[DJ Delorie]

Post by Mark Rages
The more structured approach of Bill Wilson's tutorial got me
started, though.

Also, Stuart did a tutorial for Circuit Cellar some time ago. I hope
these tutorials haven't been completely obsoleted by all our recent
development work.

[Jeremy Pedersen]

Wow! You guys are really, really fast. Thanks much!

So to recap:

- It looks like my best option here is to create "real" schematics myself
using the tech reference on the MilesTag site, and then lay out the PCB
myself in PCB. Sounds fair enough. Do you think the auto-router could handle
a board like that on its own? Or am I going to need to route my own traces?
I know the auto-router only really works if you have used the "Optimize rats
nest" tool to get the best component placement, but I thought I'd ask
anyway. Oh: and if I were to use the board layout as a background than
obviously I wouldn't be using the auto-route function. :-)

- One of the many things this laser tag board requires is a sub-circuit for
sensing pulses or infra-red light. It requires a special part (an IR
receiver...the TSOP48xx I believe). A special part like this has a very
unusual footprint: if I can't find the footprint in PCB, would it be
difficult to create my own? If so, could I substitute something with the
same number of thru-holes such as a 3-pin connector for it when I draw my
schematic?

- What is this toner transfer method? Perhaps that's what I meant to say.
The method I am trying to describe involves using glossy photo paper to
print a mirror image of the (top side) of a PCB layout, which you iron onto
a copper clad board. You then remove the paper by soaking it in lukewarm
water and place your copper clad board in a tank of etching solution such as
ferric chloride or some sort of diluted acid.

Many of you pointed out some howto's.: thanks, I'll have to look into those.
Unfortunately, I generally have less than an hour a day to devote to this,
so hopefully I can have the board layouts finished before the end of
February. :-)

Thanks,
Jeremy
--
"Windows [n.]
A thirty-two bit extension and GUI shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight
bit operating system originally coded for a four bit microprocessor and sold
by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."
(Anonymous)

~*~*~*~*~
* JDP :) *
~*~*~*~*~

[DJ Delorie]

Do you think the auto-router could handle a board like that on its
own?

Maybe. I don't use it myself for my boards, because I can do better
and my boards tend to be cramped for space.

Or am I going to need to route my own traces?

Probably, at least for some of them.

I know the auto-router only really works if you have used the
"Optimize rats nest" tool to get the best component placement, but I
thought I'd ask anyway. Oh: and if I were to use the board layout as
a background than obviously I wouldn't be using the auto-route
function. :-)

I think you're talking about auto-place, not auto-route. You can
manually place the parts according to the image, then auto-route them.

if I can't find the footprint in PCB, would it be difficult to
create my own?

It's easy to make footprints. Just draw rectangles in PCB for each
pad, select them all, and convert it to an element. Then select it
again, and save the selected element to a file. You can them use that
file name as the footprint in your schematics.

If so, could I substitute something with the same number of
thru-holes such as a 3-pin connector for it when I draw my
schematic?

You could, or draw your own symbol for it. Or use something like
djboxsym to make a box symbol for it.

- What is this toner transfer method?

You use the toner itself as the etch resist, by printing on special
paper which comes off easily when wet, or regular glossy paper, which
comes off eventually when wet.

The method I am trying to describe involves using glossy photo paper to
print a mirror image of the (top side) of a PCB layout, which you iron onto
a copper clad board. You then remove the paper by soaking it in lukewarm
water and place your copper clad board in a tank of etching solution such as
ferric chloride or some sort of diluted acid.

Yup, that's toner transfer. You said photo transfer, which usually
means photosensitive boards, UV lights, and extra chemicals.

[Karl.]

Post by DJ Delorie

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
- What is this toner transfer method?

You use the toner itself as the etch resist, by printing on special
paper which comes off easily when wet, or regular glossy paper, which
comes off eventually when wet.

I've not tried it myself, but I saw this and thought it sounded
interesting (and I like cheap):

::: quote from http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=198679 :::

By the way... if you want to know cheapest way to create PCB-s with even 0.15mm tracks :
1. buy a smoothy-shiny paper magazine
2. get a laser printer
3. create a pcb in routing tool
4. print mirrored pcb on that paper (100% scale)
5. cut the pcb to the printed size
6. get an iron, set the temperature to about 180'C and iron that paper to the copper of unetched pcb for about 5 minutes
7. put the pcb with the paper into the water for approx 10 minutes
8. try to remove the paper from the copper gently, the toner should remain on the copper
9. if everything is clear and there's no broken tracks you can etch it in the ferrum chloride (FeCl3)
10. after etching remove the remaining toner from the copper with acetone or xylene.

::: end quote :::


Karl.

[DJ Delorie]

Post by Karl.
I've not tried it myself, but I saw this and thought it sounded

This is the now common "toner transfer" method. I make some of my
boards this way, I can do 7 mil reliably and 5-6 mil in some cases.

[Ostheller, Joel A.]

I would really recommend learning how to create your own footprints.
Specifically, I would look at some existing newlib footprints and the
footprint manual and create your own footprints. I just finished up my
first board using gEDA and I am very glad I learned how to make my own
footprints. I actually ended up making new footprints for every part on
the board.



_____

From: geda-user-bounces-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:geda-user-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Pedersen
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:00 PM
To: gEDA user mailing list
Subject: Re: gEDA-user: I need to open and print a PCB created in
ExpressPCB:What are my options?





- One of the many things this laser tag board requires is a sub-circuit
for sensing pulses or infra-red light. It requires a special part (an IR
receiver...the TSOP48xx I believe). A special part like this has a very
unusual footprint: if I can't find the footprint in PCB, would it be
difficult to create my own? If so, could I substitute something with the
same number of thru-holes such as a 3-pin connector for it when I draw
my schematic?

[Lares Moreau]

I second the motion :)

I use luciani's as a base, then make the footprints not available. I use the same naming convention luciani uses. It works for me quite well.

I add the line:
/home/lares/gEDA/pcb-elements/lares
at the end of my gafrc and project files, to ensure that my footprint superseeds luciani's (or m4's *barf*) when there is a duplicate.

-Lares

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:39:10 -0800

Post by Ostheller, Joel A.
I would really recommend learning how to create your own footprints.
Specifically, I would look at some existing newlib footprints and the
footprint manual and create your own footprints. I just finished up my
first board using gEDA and I am very glad I learned how to make my own
footprints. I actually ended up making new footprints for every part on
the board.
_____
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:00 PM
To: gEDA user mailing list
Subject: Re: gEDA-user: I need to open and print a PCB created in
ExpressPCB:What are my options?
- One of the many things this laser tag board requires is a sub-circuit
for sensing pulses or infra-red light. It requires a special part (an IR
receiver...the TSOP48xx I believe). A special part like this has a very
unusual footprint: if I can't find the footprint in PCB, would it be
difficult to create my own? If so, could I substitute something with the
same number of thru-holes such as a 3-pin connector for it when I draw
my schematic?

[Jeremy Pedersen]

Yes, I must have meant auto-place, which is a feature I have yet to try.

Right. So the toner transfer method sounds like the one I ought to try. Is
it fairly accurate for two sided boards? I'm assuming you guys mostly make
two sided boards, so I suppose that's a yes, but I thought I'd ask anyway.
And while I'm thinking of it: how do you drill accurate 1mm holes? A drill
press? If that's how it needs to be done, I happen to live next to a machine
shop, so I can probably ask them to drill the holes.

Ok. Judging by the responses I've received so far, it wouldn't be terribly
tedious to create my own footprints. I guess I'll have to make my own for
several of the components involved. Speaking of which: when I edit component
attributes while making schematics (I was trying out gEDA this weekend) I
noticed that the footprint attribute has to be edited "by hand" (as far as I
know, anyway). For instance, if I need a PCB outline for a resistor, I need
to set footprint to R025. Wouldn't it be easier to have a menu one could
select footprints from? Along those lines, if I want to see what footprints
are available by default, can I look at them in PCB or gerbv? If so, where
are they (I should probably RTFM, but you guys have been really great, so
I'll ask :-D).

Thanks,
Jeremy
--
"Windows [n.]
A thirty-two bit extension and GUI shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight
bit operating system originally coded for a four bit microprocessor and sold
by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."
(Anonymous)

~*~*~*~*~
* JDP :) *
~*~*~*~*~

[DJ Delorie]

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
Right. So the toner transfer method sounds like the one I ought to
try. Is it fairly accurate for two sided boards? I'm assuming you
guys mostly make two sided boards, so I suppose that's a yes, but I
thought I'd ask anyway.

Actually, most of my boards are primarily SMT, so the ones I make
myself tend to be single sided, with very few holes.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
And while I'm thinking of it: how do you drill accurate 1mm holes? A drill
press?

I use a drill press, but part of the trick is to size the "holes" in
the copper to the *tip* of the drill bit, not the diameter. That way,
the copper helps you center the drill bit.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
when I edit component attributes while making schematics (I was
trying out gEDA this weekend) I noticed that the footprint attribute
has to be edited "by hand" (as far as I know, anyway). For instance,
if I need a PCB outline for a resistor, I need to set footprint to
R025. Wouldn't it be easier to have a menu one could select
footprints from?

I use gattrib to set all those, but yeah, we've discussed all this
before. The problem is one of managing such a database, which could
easily become HUGE.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
Along those lines, if I want to see what footprints are available by
default, can I look at them in PCB or gerbv?

Run pcb. Use Windows->Library to bring up the footprint library. The
name in brackets (like [0603]) is the footprint name to use.

[John Luciani]

A drill press? If that's how it needs to be done, I happen to live next to a machine
shop, so I can probably ask them to drill the holes.

Unless you are good friends with one of the machinists they may charge
you more to drill the holes than the PCB vendor would charge you for the
board.

Along those lines, if I want to see what footprints
are available by default, can I look at them in PCB or gerbv? If so, where
are they (I should probably RTFM, but you guys have been really great, so
I'll ask :-D).

My footprint library is at
http://www.luciani.org/geda/pcb/pcb-footprint-list.html

(* jcl *)

[Jeremy Pedersen]

Unfortunately space is at a premium in laser tag guns, so hopefully I can
make it work. I'm not sure I'd even want to attempt an SMT board at home.
Reflowing sounds a bit tricky.

Oh. I haven't met the guy yet. However, there is a machine shop here at
school and I know the teacher who runs it. Perhaps I could borrow one of
their drill presses...Whatever the case, I have to learn most of gEDA first
so I can get a working PCB layout.

Ok, I'll check out that footprint library.

p.s. This is probably as much help as you can give me until I think of
something else after reading through some of the tutorials you all provided.
One last question though: parts such as FETs tend to be sold by places like
Mouser and Digi-Key in 1000 to 4000 unit groups. If I only need a few (3-6)
MOSFETS, short of calling and asking for sample parts, what can I do?

Thanks,
Jeremy
--
"Windows [n.]
A thirty-two bit extension and GUI shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight
bit operating system originally coded for a four bit microprocessor and sold
by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."
(Anonymous)

~*~*~*~*~
* JDP :) *
~*~*~*~*~

[DJ Delorie]

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
Unfortunately space is at a premium in laser tag guns,

All the more reason to go with SMT :-)

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
I'm not sure I'd even want to attempt an SMT board at home.
Reflowing sounds a bit tricky.

You can solder them with an iron too, if the tip is small enough. I
use either an iron or a reflow hotplate. See
http://www.delorie.com/pcb/smd-challenge/

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
One last question though: parts such as FETs tend to be sold by places like
Mouser and Digi-Key in 1000 to 4000 unit groups. If I only need a few (3-6)
MOSFETS, short of calling and asking for sample parts, what can I do?

They're available in "cut tape" too, usually in units of 1 to 20
parts.

[Mark Rages]

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
Unfortunately space is at a premium in laser tag guns, so hopefully I can
make it work. I'm not sure I'd even want to attempt an SMT board at home.
Reflowing sounds a bit tricky.

Hand-soldering SMT isn't bad, unless its the real teensy-tiny SMT.
I'd say it's easier than flipping the board over while soldering
through-hole. It is harder to layout one-sided however: You can run
half a dozen traces under a through-hole resistor, but only one under
a SMT resistor.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
p.s. This is probably as much help as you can give me until I think of
something else after reading through some of the tutorials you all provided.
One last question though: parts such as FETs tend to be sold by places like
Mouser and Digi-Key in 1000 to 4000 unit groups. If I only need a few (3-6)
MOSFETS, short of calling and asking for sample parts, what can I do?

I've never had a problem ordering onsey-twoey from those guys. What
part are you having problems procuring? There are sometimes $20
minimum orders. I've never had trouble meeting those either... :)


Regards,
Mark
***@gmail

[Dave McGuire]

Post by Mark Rages

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
Unfortunately space is at a premium in laser tag guns, so
hopefully I can
make it work. I'm not sure I'd even want to attempt an SMT board at home.
Reflowing sounds a bit tricky.

Hand-soldering SMT isn't bad, unless its the real teensy-tiny SMT.
I'd say it's easier than flipping the board over while soldering
through-hole. It is harder to layout one-sided however: You can run
half a dozen traces under a through-hole resistor, but only one under
a SMT resistor.

I agree 100% here...I actually find through-hole soldering to be
more difficult and tedious than SMT now. All but the very tiniest
SMT parts can be soldered with a quality iron.

-Dave

[DJ Delorie]

Post by Dave McGuire
I agree 100% here...I actually find through-hole soldering to be
more difficult and tedious than SMT now. All but the very tiniest
SMT parts can be soldered with a quality iron.

Hey, *I* can solder even the tiniest ones. You get your challenge
board working yet? ;-)

[Peter Clifton]

Post by DJ Delorie

Post by Dave McGuire
I agree 100% here...I actually find through-hole soldering to be
more difficult and tedious than SMT now. All but the very tiniest
SMT parts can be soldered with a quality iron.

Hey, *I* can solder even the tiniest ones. You get your challenge
board working yet? ;-)

I just built one... on 01005 disappeared with a "ping" of my tweezers
(the tips of which actually dwarfed the component).

The second I nearly got soldered right - but was too much of a
perfectionist - and tried to re-orient it, eventually breaking the end
contacts off. Oh.. and I bet it didn't like its time being drowned in a
ball of solder and stuck to my iron either.

Still.. I cheated anyway, was using a x20 Binary microscope, x40
sometimes (although that is just too magnified to see what you're doing
in context - burn marks on thumb to prove it!).

What diameter solder wire do people use? I was using a bent, pointy
metcal iron with an 0.5mm ish tip, and 0.5mm solder wire. (Some lead,
tin and copper alloy). I found that the solder balls up on the end of
the wire to the point where it can dwarf an 0402's contact pad.

Peter Clifton

Electrical Engineering Division,
Engineering Department,
University of Cambridge,
9, JJ Thomson Avenue,
Cambridge
CB3 0FA

Tel: [phone] - (No signal in the lab!)

[John Luciani]

Post by Peter Clifton
What diameter solder wire do people use? I was using a bent, pointy
metcal iron with an 0.5mm ish tip, and 0.5mm solder wire. (Some lead,
tin and copper alloy). I found that the solder balls up on the end of
the wire to the point where it can dwarf an 0402's contact pad.

I use the Metcal SSC-754A tip 30deg bend, 0.02" tip,
Kester 24-6337-6422 .015" diameter solder and
Kester Flux Pen 2331-ZX

(* jcl *)

[DJ Delorie]

Post by Peter Clifton
I just built one... on 01005 disappeared with a "ping" of my tweezers
(the tips of which actually dwarfed the component).

They've been re-christened "quantum capacitors" already.

Post by Peter Clifton
Still.. I cheated anyway, was using a x20 Binary microscope, x40
sometimes

I use a x10 visor and x200 microscope.

Post by Peter Clifton
What diameter solder wire do people use? I was using a bent, pointy
metcal iron with an 0.5mm ish tip, and 0.5mm solder wire. (Some lead,
tin and copper alloy). I found that the solder balls up on the end of
the wire to the point where it can dwarf an 0402's contact pad.

I use metcal's 0.020 conical tip (about 0.5mm) and 0.020 solder.
Lately, I've been using solder paste - a dab on the pads, position the
part, use the iron to reflow it. Less hands needed, and the part
doesn't move around as much.

[Ostheller, Joel A.]

Post by DJ Delorie

Post by Peter Clifton
I just built one... on 01005 disappeared with a "ping" of my

tweezers

Post by DJ Delorie

Post by Peter Clifton
(the tips of which actually dwarfed the component).

They've been re-christened "quantum capacitors" already.

Post by Peter Clifton
Still.. I cheated anyway, was using a x20 Binary microscope, x40
sometimes

I use a x10 visor and x200 microscope.

What scope do you have? I have been thinking I would like one for home
use... now if only I can find one without selling the farm...

[DJ Delorie]

Post by Ostheller, Joel A.
What scope do you have? I have been thinking I would like one for
home use... now if only I can find one without selling the farm...

In IntelPlay QX3 USB microscope. It's a toy, but it does the job.

[DJ Delorie]

Post by DJ Delorie
In IntelPlay QX3 USB microscope. It's a toy, but it does the job.

FYI, sample photos here:

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/first.html
http://www.delorie.com/pcb/smd-challenge/fp-pix/

[Ostheller, Joel A.]

Hmmm... I would bet that looking at a computer screen while soldering is
probably easier then looking through two tiny holes... maybe not. Is
there any port of the software for Linux?

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:55 AM
To: gEDA user mailing list
Subject: Re: gEDA-user: I need to open and print a PCB
createdinExpressPCB:What are my options?

Post by DJ Delorie
In IntelPlay QX3 USB microscope. It's a toy, but it does the job.

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/first.html
http://www.delorie.com/pcb/smd-challenge/fp-pix/
_______________________________________________
geda-user mailing list
http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user

[DJ Delorie]

Post by Ostheller, Joel A.
Hmmm... I would bet that looking at a computer screen while
soldering is probably easier then looking through two tiny
holes... maybe not.

It's not set up for soldering while viewing. There isn't enough room,
the scope is plastic, and the tray is easily moved with light
pressure. This is primarily an inspection scope.

The visor I use lets me see a few sq in at a time, which is great for
soldering. I have the #5 and #10 lenses for this:

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=4227

Post by Ostheller, Joel A.
Is there any port of the software for Linux?

There is, but it's so old that I've not had luck getting it working
with FC6. Even back when it did work, the picture was double-wide for
some reason. I use XP on my laptop to run the scope software, and
that software is so old it rearranges my desktop when it runs, so I
use a separate account for it.

I've heard there's a QX5 but I don't know about its software.

[Ostheller, Joel A.]

Couldn't you basically cut off the tray/base and mount it over your
working space with a clamp? I am not saying it would be a pretty
solution, but an 80 dollar expense would sure beats a 1500 dollar
expense.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: gEDA-user: I need to open and print a
PCBcreatedinExpressPCB:What are my options?

Post by Ostheller, Joel A.
Hmmm... I would bet that looking at a computer screen while
soldering is probably easier then looking through two tiny
holes... maybe not.

It's not set up for soldering while viewing. There isn't enough room,
the scope is plastic, and the tray is easily moved with light
pressure. This is primarily an inspection scope.
The visor I use lets me see a few sq in at a time, which is great for
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=4227

Post by Ostheller, Joel A.
Is there any port of the software for Linux?

There is, but it's so old that I've not had luck getting it working
with FC6. Even back when it did work, the picture was double-wide for
some reason. I use XP on my laptop to run the scope software, and
that software is so old it rearranges my desktop when it runs, so I
use a separate account for it.
I've heard there's a QX5 but I don't know about its software.
_______________________________________________
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[DJ Delorie]

Post by Ostheller, Joel A.
Couldn't you basically cut off the tray/base and mount it over your
working space with a clamp? I am not saying it would be a pretty
solution, but an 80 dollar expense would sure beats a 1500 dollar
expense.

I've thought of that, but the focal length is still too short to work
under, and the 3.5x visor works just fine even down to 01005 size.
Plus, the visor is binocular, and the scope isn't.

[Jeremy Pedersen]

Ok. Well it looks like I've got all the info I need for now. If I've got any
other questions. I'll post in this thread (if the questions are related).

Thanks for all the help guys!

I'd better get on with perusing the docs and tutorials. :-)

Thanks much,
Jeremy

[Dan McMahill]

Post by DJ Delorie

Post by Peter Clifton
What diameter solder wire do people use? I was using a bent, pointy
metcal iron with an 0.5mm ish tip, and 0.5mm solder wire. (Some lead,
tin and copper alloy). I found that the solder balls up on the end of
the wire to the point where it can dwarf an 0402's contact pad.

I use metcal's 0.020 conical tip (about 0.5mm) and 0.020 solder.
Lately, I've been using solder paste - a dab on the pads, position the
part, use the iron to reflow it. Less hands needed, and the part
doesn't move around as much.

Are you using one of the syringes that is pressure driven with a foot
pedal valve? Or are you using a sharp toothpick?

-Dan (who hasn't started his challenge board yet partly due to his old
weller which is about perfect for 1206's)

[DJ Delorie]

Post by Dan McMahill
Are you using one of the syringes that is pressure driven with a
foot pedal valve? Or are you using a sharp toothpick?

I'm using a hand-pressure syringe from stencilsunlimited.com. I press
just enough to get a concave bit of paste peeking out of the nozzle,
then tap it on the pads.

If I try to squeeze out a drop, it gets too much and too messy.

[Steve Meier]

One of my vendors has a tool which uses a vacumn on a robotic arm to
grab the back of a device. Then they move the device over a container of
very sticky flux and lower it down until the bottoms of the balls just
bearly touch the flux.

The tool then moves the device over the fab and they position an optical
splitter between the fab and the bottom of the device. This optical
splitter allows them to move and rotate the arm until the devices balls
and the fabs pads are preceisly aligned. The optical splitter is then
removed and the device lowered onto the fab.

The sticky flux serves a secondary purpose as a temporary glue holding
the device until it is run through the oven. I am told that the
adhieseve strength of the flux is enough to hold the component in place
even if you were to throw the fab like a frisbe.

Steve M.

Post by DJ Delorie

Post by Dan McMahill
Are you using one of the syringes that is pressure driven with a
foot pedal valve? Or are you using a sharp toothpick?

I'm using a hand-pressure syringe from stencilsunlimited.com. I press
just enough to get a concave bit of paste peeking out of the nozzle,
then tap it on the pads.
If I try to squeeze out a drop, it gets too much and too messy.
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[Darrell Harmon]

Post by Peter Clifton

Post by DJ Delorie

Post by Dave McGuire
I agree 100% here...I actually find through-hole soldering to be
more difficult and tedious than SMT now. All but the very tiniest
SMT parts can be soldered with a quality iron.

Hey, *I* can solder even the tiniest ones. You get your challenge
board working yet? ;-)

I just built one... on 01005 disappeared with a "ping" of my tweezers
(the tips of which actually dwarfed the component).
The second I nearly got soldered right - but was too much of a
perfectionist - and tried to re-orient it, eventually breaking the end
contacts off. Oh.. and I bet it didn't like its time being drowned in a
ball of solder and stuck to my iron either.
Still.. I cheated anyway, was using a x20 Binary microscope, x40
sometimes (although that is just too magnified to see what you're doing
in context - burn marks on thumb to prove it!).
What diameter solder wire do people use? I was using a bent, pointy
metcal iron with an 0.5mm ish tip, and 0.5mm solder wire. (Some lead,
tin and copper alloy). I found that the solder balls up on the end of
the wire to the point where it can dwarf an 0402's contact pad.
Peter Clifton
Electrical Engineering Division,
Engineering Department,
University of Cambridge,
9, JJ Thomson Avenue,
Cambridge
CB3 0FA
Tel: [phone] - (No signal in the lab!)
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geda-user mailing list
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I used 0.020" Kester 331 solder with a 2331ZX flux pen and a Metcal STTC
099 (0.060" bent chisel) soldering iron tip. It worked great.

Darrell Harmon

[Dave McGuire]

Post by DJ Delorie

Post by Dave McGuire
I agree 100% here...I actually find through-hole soldering to be
more difficult and tedious than SMT now. All but the very tiniest
SMT parts can be soldered with a quality iron.

Hey, *I* can solder even the tiniest ones. You get your challenge
board working yet? ;-)

I must admit, with some embarrassment, that I've not even tried.
The past three months have been a nightmare here, changing jobs,
selling my house, buying a new one, moving...I'm all moved now, but
my new datacenter & lab buildout isn't complete, and everything is
about half-functional around here as a result. :-(

-Dave

[John Luciani]

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
If I only need a few (3-6)
MOSFETS, short of calling and asking for sample parts, what can I do?

If you have a school email address you can get free (or very low-cost) samples
from almost any semiconductor manufacturer. For MOSFETs I would try On-Semi.
On-Semi has an excellent website and it is very easy to get samples using the
website. Their parts are low-cost if you can not get samples.

(* jcl *)

[Dave McGuire]

Post by John Luciani

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
If I only need a few (3-6)
MOSFETS, short of calling and asking for sample parts, what can I do?

If you have a school email address you can get free (or very low-
cost) samples
from almost any semiconductor manufacturer. For MOSFETs I would try On-Semi.
On-Semi has an excellent website and it is very easy to get samples using the
website. Their parts are low-cost if you can not get samples.

Also, unless you're using really weird MOSFETs, most common parts
can be had in small quantities either from Mouser/DigiKey/etc, or via
eBay (new of course...many people oh-so-wrongly assume "eBay" means
"used").

I use a lot of 2N7000, 2N7002, BSN20, and IRF520/IRF820/etc
MOSFETs in my designs and I've bought most of them in ~20 unit
quantities on eBay for a few dollars at most.

-Dave

[Jeremy Pedersen]

So it's possible to hand solder or reflow these things at home? Better yet,
can you do double sided SMT boards? I always thought you coudn't do it
because you would have to have components touching the surface of the reflow
skillet on one side while the other side was supposed to reflow. Also, am I
right to suppose that since you use gEDA that there are footprints in gEDA
for SMD components?

That's something I hadn't thought of. I do have a school e-mail address, so
I will check out On-semi.

I couldn't really tell you if this is a particularly weird MOSFET. We just
started semiconductor devices at school, so I'm really only familiar with
Diodes so far. Here's the part at both Digi-Key and Mouser:

Mouser ) 511-STN1NF10
Digi-Key ) IRLD110-ND

I think they're the same: I'm not really sure. MilesTag specs the Digi-key
part.

Thanks all,
Jeremy

[Mark Rages]

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
So it's possible to hand solder or reflow these things at home? Better yet,
can you do double sided SMT boards? I always thought you coudn't do it
because you would have to have components touching the surface of the reflow
skillet on one side while the other side was supposed to reflow. Also, am I
right to suppose that since you use gEDA that there are footprints in gEDA
for SMD components?
That's something I hadn't thought of. I do have a school e-mail address, so
I will check out On-semi.
I couldn't really tell you if this is a particularly weird MOSFET. We just
started semiconductor devices at school, so I'm really only familiar with
Mouser ) 511-STN1NF10
Digi-Key ) IRLD110-ND

Try the lead-free version: $1.95 in single piece qty: IRLD110PBF-ND

Regards,
Mark
***@gmail

[DJ Delorie]

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
So it's possible to hand solder or reflow these things at home?

Yup. See http://www.delorie.com/pcb/hotplate/ for a photo of my
hotplate.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
Better yet, can you do double sided SMT boards? I always thought you
coudn't do it because you would have to have components touching the
surface of the reflow skillet on one side while the other side was
supposed to reflow.

I reflow the top, then hand solder the bottom. You can do it with an
oven if you do bottom first; surface tension holds the parts in place
even when they're hanging underneath, as long as they're not too
heavy.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
Also, am I right to suppose that since you use gEDA that there are
footprints in gEDA for SMD components?

Yup. Mostly in the ~geda category.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
Digi-Key ) IRLD110-ND

That's a standard DIP4 footprint. However, ~geda only goes down to
DIP6 so you'll have to create your own. Just put the holes on 0.1"
centers.

[John Luciani]

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
So it's possible to hand solder or reflow these things at home? Better yet,
can you do double sided SMT boards? I always thought you coudn't do it
because you would have to have components touching the surface of the reflow
skillet on one side while the other side was supposed to reflow. Also, am I
right to suppose that since you use gEDA that there are footprints in gEDA
for SMD components?

You will only be able to solder one side of the board on the skillet
the other side you
will have to hand solder.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
Mouser ) 511-STN1NF10
Digi-Key ) IRLD110-ND

Those may be two different style packages.

Try http://www.findchips.com to get pricing and stock information.

Allied has the lead-free version of the IRLD110 in stock for 30% less than
Digikey.

(* jcl *)

[Levente Kovacs]

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:45:48 -0500

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
So it's possible to hand solder or reflow these things at home? Better yet,

Hi Jeremy,


If you would like to have a home reflow system, you might want to take a look at this page:

http://web.interware.hu/lekovacs/reflow_oven/index.html

It's my IR reflow setup.

Cheers,
Levente

[Jeremy Pedersen]

Levente,

I didn't even know such a thing was possible. Whatever the case, I still
have to learn how to use gEDA (one of the reasons I started this thread) and
learn how to solder normal thru-hole components. This should be useful to me
if and when I branch out into SMT components. :-)

Thanks,
Jeremy

Post by Levente Kovacs
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:45:48 -0500

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
So it's possible to hand solder or reflow these things at home? Better

yet,
Hi Jeremy,
http://web.interware.hu/lekovacs/reflow_oven/index.html
It's my IR reflow setup.
Cheers,
Levente
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geda-user mailing list
http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user

[Dave McGuire]

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
I didn't even know such a thing was possible. Whatever the case, I
still have to learn how to use gEDA (one of the reasons I started
this thread) and learn how to solder normal thru-hole components.
This should be useful to me if and when I branch out into SMT
components. :-)

When the time for SMT comes, just keep in mind the #1 problem
people have with SMT soldering: People tend to think it's just like
through-hole soldering, but without the hole and wire. This is not
the case; it is a whole different feel. Through-hole soldering
experience is valuable when doing SMT soldering, but there is a
learning curve involved.

Well perhaps that's not the #1 problem...I think it's #2. #1 is
the automatic fear of SMT, the assumption that "it's harder" because
the parts are smaller. That's a load of bull. Many (most?) people
find that it's actually easier.

-Dave

[Jeremy Pedersen]

Ok. I will keep those things in mind.

p.s. I haven't quite got mailing lists worked out yet, because I've only
really ever used forums and IRC channels. Is there some way that I can opt
to receive mail only from threads to which I am subscribed? I know that's
really a forum thing, so if not, I'll just opt to check the archives every
so often instead of receiving mail.

Thanks,
Jeremy
--
"Windows [n.]
A thirty-two bit extension and GUI shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight
bit operating system originally coded for a four bit microprocessor and sold
by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."
(Anonymous)

~*~*~*~*~
* JDP :) *
~*~*~*~*~

[Dave McGuire]

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
p.s. I haven't quite got mailing lists worked out yet, because I've
only really ever used forums and IRC channels. Is there some way
that I can opt to receive mail only from threads to which I am
subscribed? I know that's really a forum thing, so if not, I'll
just opt to check the archives every so often instead of receiving
mail.

No, there's no way to do that. When one subscribes to a mailing
list, one receives all messages sent to that list.

Before you unsubscribe in order to not receive "other" messages, I
suggest that it may be valuable to look over the other traffic
occasionally. I've learned a great deal here, even having done this
sort of work for a long time myself.

-Dave

[Jeremy Pedersen]

Dave McGuire,

Well somehow I ended up e-mailing you directly without realizing it (the
gmail reply selection is mostly automatic, so it caught me off guard when it
switched from mailing the gEDA list to mailing you).

Anyway, for the benefit of everyone else, here's my last e-mail in case you
want to comment on it.

Right you are. I just wish I had gotten off my lazy butt sooner. I wanted
to start learning this six months ago, when I had the time, and now I have
to make time.
I had noticed there were a few folks here who had written some software,
but Icarus verilog and gnucap? Wow. I'll be sure not to ask any really
stupid questions: I really wouldn't want to embarrass myself in front of
people this talented.
I wish I felt the same. I've always felt like math is a very important
part of life, and I'm ashamed that I'm not better at it. I'm also not very
good at analyzing circuits just yet, so when things can be reduced to
formulas I find it helpful. I suppose you mean things like lambda calculus
though. :-)
You've been doing this for quite a long time. I didn't have a computer
until I was ten, didn't discover GNU/Linux until I was 13 or so, and
circuits were a mystery to me until September of last year. I always thought
I wanted to be a "software guy" before I realized there's a sort of border
world between the software and hardware schools of thought. I'm speaking of
FPGA's, circuit simulators, PIC micro chips, etc... It seems like such an
interesting mating of hardware and software.
Thanks,
Jeremy

--
"Windows [n.]
A thirty-two bit extension and GUI shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight
bit operating system originally coded for a four bit microprocessor and sold
by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."
(Anonymous)

~*~*~*~*~
* JDP :) *
~*~*~*~*~

[Jeremy Pedersen]

I understand how you feel, but with these particular guys at
least...they're very down-to-earth. Every one of them has shown a
real willingness to help people, even newbies, whenever possible.

Well that's good. I'll be sure to pay close attention to their suggestions.

I've never been a fan of PC
hardware (too slow & "cheap"-feeling for my taste) so I don't mess
with Linux very much.

I'm limited to x86 hardware because its cheap, so it doesn't matter much to
me if it feels cheap. As for Linux at 13, I can't say I was a very
impressive user. My first memory of running Linux is actually of not running
it. I got a kernel panic on the first try because I didn't know about boot
loaders or about specifying a root= in grub. I know a bit more now, but I
still can't write much more than a basic bash script of a few lines of
assembly. And the PDP-11? Wow, I've only ever read about that thing. :-)

But I've worked with people who
would spend a whole day calculating what I can walk to a bench and
measure in seconds. THAT is ridiculous.

Yeah. My experience in lab has been that generally the measurements (if
taken properly) are more than accurate enough for troubleshooting and
adjustments. I'm clumsy though, so the calculations (at least the simple
ones) are often faster for me. Breadboarding a full-wave bridge rectifier
takes me 10 to 15 minutes, running the calculations can be done in under 2.
:-/

One other thing to keep in mind. Hacking on embedded systems will
teach you how to write efficient code, and you can take those skills
right back to "big" machines at great benefit. In these days of
Windows morons writing simple programs which require hundreds of
megabytes of RAM...these guys are not programmers. In the world of
embedded systems, in smaller applications one frequently finds
oneself writing code to run on a system with a few dozen bytes (yes
bytes) of RAM. And they do *real work*.

That's for sure. Right now we are learning how to program basic stamp
microcontrollers in class, and while I'm not fond of them (they use PBASIC:
a proprietary programming language! Can you believe such a thing?) I can see
how they require efficiency. I write an 820 byte program for one of these
things that would follow a flow chart for troubleshooting diesel engines. It
turned out that by shortening some output messages to the debug terminal and
eliminating some stray CASE statements, the code could be squeezed into 70
bytes! The guy next to me actually didn't use the debug terminal (which
requires a serial port connection to a PC) and managed to get his program
into 20 bytes using dip switches for the simple yes/no questions! I am
uncomfortable in hardware though, so I wasn't willing to use switches. :-(
--
"Windows [n.]
A thirty-two bit extension and GUI shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight
bit operating system originally coded for a four bit microprocessor and sold
by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."
(Anonymous)

~*~*~*~*~
* JDP :) *
~*~*~*~*~

[Ales Hvezda]

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
Ok. I will keep those things in mind.
p.s. I haven't quite got mailing lists worked out yet, because I've only
really ever used forums and IRC channels. Is there some way that I can opt
to receive mail only from threads to which I am subscribed? I know that's
really a forum thing, so if not, I'll just opt to check the archives every
so often instead of receiving mail.

Not really, but you could turn on mail list digesting (it's in the
mailman web interface), so that you get only get one message per day.
This one message includes all the traffic for the list for the day.

-Ales

[Mark Rages]

Post by Ales Hvezda

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
Ok. I will keep those things in mind.
p.s. I haven't quite got mailing lists worked out yet, because I've only
really ever used forums and IRC channels. Is there some way that I can opt
to receive mail only from threads to which I am subscribed? I know that's
really a forum thing, so if not, I'll just opt to check the archives every
so often instead of receiving mail.

Not really, but you could turn on mail list digesting (it's in the
mailman web interface), so that you get only get one message per day.
This one message includes all the traffic for the list for the day.
-Ales

Jeremy is using Gmail, so he can do this:
1) set a filter to catch messages with "gEDA-user" in the subject and
archive immediately (bypassing the Inbox).
2) to see threads you have posted in, click "Sent Messages". The
unread threads are highlighted.
3) to read the list, do a search for "gEDA-user".

Gmail is excellent for mailing lists. It's even better than NNTP clients.

Regards,
Mark
***@gmail

[Jeremy Pedersen]

Oh. I didn't even know I could do that. Thanks, I'll try and set that up.

Post by Jeremy Pedersen

Post by Ales Hvezda

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
Ok. I will keep those things in mind.
p.s. I haven't quite got mailing lists worked out yet, because I've

only

Post by Ales Hvezda

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
really ever used forums and IRC channels. Is there some way that I can

opt

Post by Ales Hvezda

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
to receive mail only from threads to which I am subscribed? I know

that's

Post by Ales Hvezda

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
really a forum thing, so if not, I'll just opt to check the archives

every

Post by Ales Hvezda

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
so often instead of receiving mail.

Not really, but you could turn on mail list digesting (it's in the
mailman web interface), so that you get only get one message per day.
This one message includes all the traffic for the list for the day.
-Ales

1) set a filter to catch messages with "gEDA-user" in the subject and
archive immediately (bypassing the Inbox).
2) to see threads you have posted in, click "Sent Messages". The
unread threads are highlighted.
3) to read the list, do a search for "gEDA-user".
Gmail is excellent for mailing lists. It's even better than NNTP clients.
Regards,
Mark
--
You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one.
- fortune cookie
_______________________________________________
geda-user mailing list
http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user

--
"Windows [n.]
A thirty-two bit extension and GUI shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight
bit operating system originally coded for a four bit microprocessor and sold
by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition."
(Anonymous)

~*~*~*~*~
* JDP :) *
~*~*~*~*~

[John Luciani]

Post by Jeremy Pedersen
- And last but not least, could I write my own schematics (using the
schematics on the MilesTag site) and make my own PCB from this schematic?
(link to schematics: http://lasertagparts.com/mt5xx.htm).
Looking at that schematic, could anyone here tell me what chance I stand of
making a PCB layout that works? If so, how long would it take someone
starting from almost absolute zero to create these files? What are the
chances the first (auto-routed) two sided boards would work? I have looked
into gEDA and it looks very complicated at first glance, yet very powerful
-- like most things under Linux :-) -- what documentation should I peruse if
I were to attempt this feat? I should probably be learning gEDA anyway so
that I can avoid the software we must use at school: MultiSim.

This seems like your best option. That board should be a good first
board to try. You can
create a gschem schematic using the ExpressPCB schematic and use the
existing PCB layout as a guide to place your components.

A lot of people (including me) start with this tutorial.

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/billw/gsch2pcb/tutorial.html

Also checkout the wiki at geda.seul.org

(* jcl *)