Discussion:
How it may work some day...
(too old to reply)
Stefan Salewski
2014-08-03 12:58:52 UTC
Permalink
Yesterday I wrote some minimal description of the intended behaviour of
my gschem clone, see

http://www.ssalewski.de/PetEd.html.en

In first line this is for myself -- to motivate me to continue the
cleanup process and to ensure that my cleanups will not change the
intended behaviour...

Recently someone pointed me to one of these commercial Web-based editors
-- this one is from Digikey called SchemeIt, see link at bottom of my
page. I can remember I have tested a similar tool about one year ago for
a few seconds -- looked not really bad. Some people say that this kind
of Web-based tools is the future -- is someone really using it?

And schematics and PCB layout on smartphone and tablets -- I can
remember that some people said that that is the future. I still can not
really imagine how this should work, and I have not seen such Apps yet.
Is someone using it, and is it really the future? Or is someone of you
already working on such an App?
Ed Simmons
2014-08-03 13:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Stefan,
Post by Stefan Salewski
Yesterday I wrote some minimal description of the intended behaviour of
my gschem clone, see
http://www.ssalewski.de/PetEd.html.en
In first line this is for myself -- to motivate me to continue the
cleanup process and to ensure that my cleanups will not change the
intended behaviour...
Recently someone pointed me to one of these commercial Web-based editors
-- this one is from Digikey called SchemeIt, see link at bottom of my
page. I can remember I have tested a similar tool about one year ago for
a few seconds -- looked not really bad. Some people say that this kind
of Web-based tools is the future -- is someone really using it?
And schematics and PCB layout on smartphone and tablets -- I can
remember that some people said that that is the future. I still can not
really imagine how this should work, and I have not seen such Apps yet.
Is someone using it, and is it really the future? Or is someone of you
already working on such an App?
I will not be picking up a tablet for design work any time soon... when
people say 'this is the future' I think they are forgetting about all
the trappings of schematic capture and design. Where are we supposed to
put the 300+pg datasheets on our tablets? Is it really going to be
faster or better to have the tablet involved? I don't think it'll ever
surpass the ease of use of a desktop, especially with multi-head display.

Just my 2c.
Ed
Nathan Stewart
2014-08-03 13:50:13 UTC
Permalink
I think web based is the future, but it's one they're gonna have to drag me
in to kicking and screaming. Desktops can't ever really go away, but I
think the market is strongly pushing the common people back into "content
consumption devices" and the PC market will eventually shrink back towards
what it used to be. The domain of nerds and people using them for real
work. That said.. occasionally I want to browse or edit while I just have
a tablet.
Post by Ed Simmons
Hi Stefan,
Post by Stefan Salewski
Yesterday I wrote some minimal description of the intended behaviour of
my gschem clone, see
http://www.ssalewski.de/PetEd.html.en
In first line this is for myself -- to motivate me to continue the
cleanup process and to ensure that my cleanups will not change the
intended behaviour...
Recently someone pointed me to one of these commercial Web-based editors
-- this one is from Digikey called SchemeIt, see link at bottom of my
page. I can remember I have tested a similar tool about one year ago for
a few seconds -- looked not really bad. Some people say that this kind
of Web-based tools is the future -- is someone really using it?
And schematics and PCB layout on smartphone and tablets -- I can
remember that some people said that that is the future. I still can not
really imagine how this should work, and I have not seen such Apps yet.
Is someone using it, and is it really the future? Or is someone of you
already working on such an App?
I will not be picking up a tablet for design work any time soon... when
people say 'this is the future' I think they are forgetting about all the
trappings of schematic capture and design. Where are we supposed to put the
300+pg datasheets on our tablets? Is it really going to be faster or better
to have the tablet involved? I don't think it'll ever surpass the ease of
use of a desktop, especially with multi-head display.
Just my 2c.
Ed
Britton Kerin
2014-08-03 19:58:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 5:50 AM, Nathan Stewart
Post by Nathan Stewart
I think web based is the future, but it's one they're gonna have to drag me
in to kicking and screaming. Desktops can't ever really go away, but I think
The web based stuff will win in the end, but its going to take a long
time. Consider the situation with phones: if you have a choice Java
applet vs. javascript web page, you're gonna choose the applet.
Javascript + DOM remains so awful to work with its pretty much
impossible in practice to create anything anywhere near as usable as a
desktop app for complex apps.

Britton
John Griessen
2014-08-07 13:09:39 UTC
Permalink
I don't think it'll ever surpass the ease of use of a desktop, especially with multi-head display.
+1

Dave McGuire
2014-08-03 16:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Salewski
Yesterday I wrote some minimal description of the intended behaviour of
my gschem clone, see
http://www.ssalewski.de/PetEd.html.en
In first line this is for myself -- to motivate me to continue the
cleanup process and to ensure that my cleanups will not change the
intended behaviour...
Recently someone pointed me to one of these commercial Web-based editors
-- this one is from Digikey called SchemeIt, see link at bottom of my
page. I can remember I have tested a similar tool about one year ago for
a few seconds -- looked not really bad. Some people say that this kind
of Web-based tools is the future -- is someone really using it?
And schematics and PCB layout on smartphone and tablets -- I can
remember that some people said that that is the future. I still can not
really imagine how this should work, and I have not seen such Apps yet.
Is someone using it, and is it really the future? Or is someone of you
already working on such an App?
I can't imagine it either.

But keep in mind one important concept, one which most people seem to
have forgotten: We are not all just "passengers" in stuff like this. We
are steering where this stuff is going, these use cases and work
methodologies. We don't have to just "follow along" with "what everyone
else is doing", because what happens if everyone just does that? Nobody
steers, much to the delight of salesmen everywhere.

A very bad side-effect of nobody steering is that SOMEONE will notice
this and start taking advantage of the situation. That's usually
salespeople and suits, and they usually gravitate toward creating vendor
lock-in situations. That's what's going to happen with these silly
"web-based design" tools. Sure, they'll say "Oh, your data is safe, you
can download it!" ...but nobody actually WILL, and when those companies
close up shop, or someone in China starts selling a board that looks
suspiciously like yours, you're S-O-L.

So, don't worry about what "is the future". Decide what works best,
using your wisdom and experience, and DO it, and don't let some salesman
tell you otherwise. Smart people will likely independently converge on
related (if not actually similar) solutions, and dumb people,
well...they can pay us for our advice.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ/3
New Kensington, PA
Cirilo Bernardo
2014-08-04 00:21:19 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 4, 2014 2:33 AM
Subject: Re: [geda-user] How it may work some day...
Post by Stefan Salewski
Yesterday I wrote some minimal description of the intended behaviour of
my gschem clone, see
http://www.ssalewski.de/PetEd.html.en
In first line this is for myself -- to motivate me to continue the
cleanup process and to ensure that my cleanups will not change the
intended behaviour...
Recently someone pointed me to one of these commercial Web-based editors
-- this one is from Digikey called SchemeIt, see link at bottom of my
page. I can remember I have tested a similar tool about one year ago for
a few seconds -- looked not really bad. Some people say that this kind
of Web-based tools is the future -- is someone really using it?
And schematics and PCB layout on smartphone and tablets -- I can
remember that some people said that that is the future. I still can not
really imagine how this should work, and I have not seen such Apps yet.
Is someone using it, and is it really the future? Or is someone of you
already working on such an App?
  I can't imagine it either.
  But keep in mind one important concept, one which most people seem to
have forgotten: We are not all just "passengers" in stuff like this. 
We
are steering where this stuff is going, these use cases and work
methodologies.  We don't have to just "follow along" with
"what everyone
else is doing", because what happens if everyone just does that?  Nobody
steers, much to the delight of salesmen everywhere.
  A very bad side-effect of nobody steering is that SOMEONE will notice
this and start taking advantage of the situation.  That's usually
salespeople and suits, and they usually gravitate toward creating vendor
lock-in situations.  That's what's going to happen with these silly
"web-based design" tools.  Sure, they'll say "Oh, your data
is safe, you
can download it!"  ...but nobody actually WILL, and when those companies
close up shop, or someone in China starts selling a board that looks
suspiciously like yours, you're S-O-L.
  So, don't worry about what "is the future".  Decide what works
best,
using your wisdom and experience, and DO it, and don't let some salesman
tell you otherwise.  Smart people will likely independently converge on
related (if not actually similar) solutions, and dumb people,
well...they can pay us for our advice.
                -Dave
We already see vendor lock-in with software like "DesignSpark" and with
many of the web-based services. The odd web service will publish their
file format so you at least have some hope of writing a translator if
their software becomes unavailable, but is that software really so good
that you'd give up using your free software which you have control over?
In addition to that, there is no guarantee that a web service will continue
to publish their file format in the future, so you can't really trust
any mention of guarantees unless there is a reliable third party involved.

I think you can do ECAD on your phone when your phone has an 800mm screen.
I know some people have tried to compile kicad for an ARM/Android system
and I think if people want to do that, it's fine as long as they use their
own time and they don't break the code or make it unmaintainable. (Remember
the Linux ARM wars?) Ultimately it is the users who contribute to the code
development who drive how things change. If someone gets gEda running on
a tablet I'll think "oh, that's interesting" but I doubt I'd take such an
effort seriously.

- Cirilo
gedau-1XeMD6fE9sqV9CSZFf/
2014-08-04 11:14:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Salewski
Yesterday I wrote some minimal description of the intended behaviour of
my gschem clone, see
http://www.ssalewski.de/PetEd.html.en
In first line this is for myself -- to motivate me to continue the
cleanup process and to ensure that my cleanups will not change the
intended behaviour...
Recently someone pointed me to one of these commercial Web-based editors
-- this one is from Digikey called SchemeIt, see link at bottom of my
page. I can remember I have tested a similar tool about one year ago for
a few seconds -- looked not really bad. Some people say that this kind
of Web-based tools is the future -- is someone really using it?
And schematics and PCB layout on smartphone and tablets -- I can
remember that some people said that that is the future. I still can not
really imagine how this should work, and I have not seen such Apps yet.
Is someone using it, and is it really the future? Or is someone of you
already working on such an App?
I have PCB installed on my nokia n900 (not a typical device). It works to
some degree and once I even used it once to capture a draft.

I may be an old-style user but for me web apps are just slow programs
most often with inefficient and even annoying UI, and a lot of risks (what
if I'm offline when I need to access the design, what if the host goes
bankrupt or just makes the wrong decisions in a new version, etc). I
prefer apps that I can run locally and combine them with my choice of
version control.

Regards,

Tibor
Peter Stuge
2014-08-04 19:01:11 UTC
Permalink
but for me web apps are just slow programs most often with
inefficient and even annoying UI, and a lot of risks
Indeed.

The web browser is the new operating system. Except that it doesn't
really learn anything from the six or so decades of operating system
development that we have done already.

All the problems and bad ideas are re-implemented.

Maybe the web will work as well as the Linux desktop does in 30 years.


//Peter
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